Williams apologies to drivers

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Well done Claire !

It was a terrible mistake of the pit wall but mistake happens ...however we need to be professional and address the error.

This was an exceptional example of how to manage a crisis.
Good job and reinforced leadership.
Team may emerge stronger!

Now focus on Bahrain.

Alternatively, Williams team fans, frustrated with not beating Button, and frustrated with a driver in his first effective race for the team telling them where to go now have to suffer the depressing realisation that Massa is racing for himself, not the team, the public humiliation of portraying Williams management as incompetent and agreeing to be subservient to a guy who's lost 1 championship in comparison to Williams who have won 16.

It's totally unnecessary to make an absolute surrender. She should have apologised for the team using the wrong language and not keeping Massa fully informed. She should not have apologised for the team deciding to practice team orders in that situation.

She's right Williams fans want to see Williams drivers being allowed to fight for things. It's when they stop bothering that they need to get the hell out of the way.

The other corner she's put the team in is this:

If in future, either driver finds himself significantly up the road and wants to pit for fresh tyres, perhaps contesting a podium spot or even a win, and attempting to undercut their competitor, they will now have to factor in the probability that the 2nd Williams driver on older rubber will fight tooth and nail to keep the faster car behind and the team will not be able to issue team orders.

That is a ludicrous position to be in. They may end up spoiling the 2nd driver's strategy just to pit them out of the way, because they can't trust them to cooperate with one another.

It's a joke.

Quote:

crusty_bread
It's totally unnecessary to make an absolute surrender. She should have apologised for the team using the wrong language and not keeping Massa fully informed. She should not have apologised for the team deciding to practice team orders in that situation.

+1

I fully agree.

I have to say I'm pretty disgusted by the apology, as there is really nothing to apologize for and I hate seeing the team behaving so weakly.

The whole story went far more public than it should have.

It was certainly handled badly.

But this also seems a little inept . . . even unnecessary.

So, I suspect some pressure here . . . from sponsors?

If Massa is going to go crying on Brazilian TV after every poor race it's simply going to be Maldonado 2.

When Vettel ignored team orders, I seem to remember that he apologised, not the other way around.

Quote:

A.Fant
I fully agree.
I have to say I'm pretty disgusted by the apology, as there is really nothing to apologize for and I hate seeing the team behaving so weakly.

+1 here also.

Excellent Point Gunk.

This is of course the same team who presided over one of the earliest public examples of driver disobedience- Carlos Reutemann in 1981. Had Williams enjoyed the authority to ensure Reutemann honoured his contract, Jones would not have spent all year driving in a furious rage, coming a scant 4 pts short of the title- 3 of which he lost in Rio.

It is also the team that lost Honda engines to first Lotus, then McLaren due to refusing to issue team orders.

After this public apology, how can Williams expect to issue orders and expect their drivers to listen? Claire has completely and utterly lost authority over her drivers. The driver is one of 500 employees. Quite why he feels his personal points tally is worth more than the teams overall is beyond me. there are no financial prizes for coming 4th or 8th or whatever in the drivers championship, There most certainly are prizes for constructors positions. Massa's points tally means zip.

Whatever way you swing it, this stance is utterly illogical. The only rational explanation is that it's entirely a PR exercise and Claire is on the charm offensive to appeal to Massa's gentler nature, because Williams GP Engineering Publically apologising to....Massa? ridiculous.

I agree, Claire played it too soft. Why would they listen to the team after this.


Sir Frank: "It's what we do, we love doing it. It's like oxygen, it fixes you".

in my opinion the situation during the race was badly managed but this apology makes no sense. bad managment call.

As Claire got all my credit in just one year and has proven that every decission not easy to understand short term for the ones as me who handle just common public info was strongly backed up by a following meaningful reason, I have to be humble on criticism on this one as may well be part of a master plan of getting media attraction and preparing Smedley's disembark the se week for reasons I ignore.
She has proven to handle with long sighted better than anyone's expectations so far.

Quote:

crusty_bread
Excellent Point Gunk.
This is of course the same team who presided over one of the earliest public examples of driver disobedience- Carlos Reutemann in 1981. Had Williams enjoyed the authority to ensure Reutemann honoured his contract, Jones would not have spent all year driving in a furious rage, coming a scant 4 pts short of the title- 3 of which he lost in Rio.

It is also the team that lost Honda engines to first Lotus, then McLaren due to refusing to issue team orders.

After this public apology, how can Williams expect to issue orders and expect their drivers to listen? Claire has completely and utterly lost authority over her drivers. The driver is one of 500 employees. Quite why he feels his personal points tally is worth more than the teams overall is beyond me. there are no financial prizes for coming 4th or 8th or whatever in the drivers championship, There most certainly are prizes for constructors positions. Massa's points tally means zip.

Whatever way you swing it, this stance is utterly illogical. The only rational explanation is that it's entirely a PR exercise and Claire is on the charm offensive to appeal to Massa's gentler nature, because Williams GP Engineering Publically apologising to....Massa? ridiculous.

Quote:

backsoon
As Claire got all my credit in just one year and has proven that every decission not easy to understand short term for the ones as me who handle just common public info was strongly backed up by a following meaningful reason, I have to be humble on criticism on this one as may well be part of a master plan of getting media attraction and preparing Smedley's disembark the se week for reasons I ignore.
She has proven to handle with long sighted better than anyone's expectations so far.

According to Sky, Massa was cheered by brazillians back home and greeted as a hero for disobeying orders (???!!!) According to them, had he obeyed, he would have been "finished" in their eyes. I think that's an incredibly unsophisticated way of seeing things, and shows that he and his fans see it the same- that it's him vs his teammate, and that letting his teammate through in any circumstance makes him number 2.

Obviously, In comparison to Williams' '81, Williams '86/'87 and Ferrari 2010, a world title is almost certainly not at stake this year, so the justification for disobeying team orders isn't there- there is no incentive for a driver to disobey orders other than brainless ego, and there is no motivation for the team to issue orders other than to maximise points that race. There is no agenda, but Massa fans can't see beyond that race and see how it could work in their driver's favour in other races.

In fairness, I grudgingly admire Carlos for his act in Rio because Jones had just won the title and Reutemann, coming towards the end of his career, had never won it, probably wouldn't get another chance, and really should never have been a number 2 in the first place. He had the race won, with no threat from behind, and Jones wasn't close.

Anyway, Brazillian fans' views should not have had a bearing on Williams' decision making, but it's information which provides a fuller picture anyway, and perhaps influenced Massa's decision making at the time, knowing the reception he would receive back him and in the media.

You are an employee.. you get payed to race and do your maximum for the team.. if you can't deal with taking orders.. there are at least 5 guys waiting for your race seat.. enjoy a nice retirement.

1996 was a memorable season. Why is it that talented drivers leave Williams?

"When you talk, you are repeating what you already know. But if you listen, you may learn something new." - Dalai Lama

I fail to see the fuss & noise being made over the issue here. As far as I understand she apologised for improper handling of the situation (which could mean using poor choice of words to communicate the issue). She's done a good job so far so I am going to trust her judgement more than what anyone says here.

Quote:

phatjack
1996 was a memorable season. Why is it that talented drivers leave Williams?

Because Williams have been good enough for long enough to attract a lot of talented drivers, and consequently, have lost more talented drivers, than, say, RedBull. Ferrari and McLaren have racked up a fair list themselves- it's just how it goes.

Top drivers rarely get on together. Williams like to put them together, but it almost never works out: just look at Hamilton and Alonso, or Prost and Senna. You could argue "why wasn't McLaren able to hang onto 4 times champion Prost, or 2 times champion Alonso? Or 2 times champion Hakkinen? Or 2 times champion Fittipaldi? Or 1 time champion Hunt? Or 3 times champion Lauda? Or 1 time champion Rosberg?

If anything. I think Ferrari have by far the worst record of mismanagement- sacking Lauda and Prost for really petty reasons, and backing Massa over Raikkonen due to politics.

Anyway, you asked, and here's a summary:

1) Jones retired because his teammate wasn't honouring his number 2 contract and Jones felt disrespected

2) Rosberg left because he refused to race alongside Mansell. He later regretted it.

3) Piquet left because Williams wouldn't make him defacto number 1 at a time when Mansell looked at least his match for pace, if not plain faster.

4) Mansell left because Williams sucked with Judd- a legacy of Honda leaving- because Williams wouldn't make Piquet defacto number 1 (spot a pattern?)

5) Mansell left (again!) because Renault pressured Williams to hire Prost and Mansell's ego couldn't hack racing alongside him. Williams won without him.

6) Prost left because Renault and Williams wanted Senna more, and Prost refused to race alongside him (spot a pattern?)

7) Hill was sacked because he proved he was no match for Schumacher. Williams won without him.

8) Villenueve left because Renault had withdrawn and were no longer competitive.

9) Montoya left because he was disciplined for accusing the team (unfairly) of favouring Ralf, and couldn't take it.

So Williams comes in for a lot of stick, but I think it is largely unjustified. They have made some mistakes with hindsight, (the Frentzen call honestly could have worked out very differently) but by and large, their track record has been pretty good, and an awful lot has to do with the egos of those involved. They could have hired a tame number 2, totally pandered to a top driver and tried to rack up the championships with the same driver (Mansell for 93? Prost for 94?) but no-one with a passion for motor-racing has any appetite for that (Schumacher/Ferrari?) and by avoiding that situation, Williams (and Renault) boosted their own reputations and diminished the importance of the drivers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014:04:05:13:05:15 by crusty_bread.

Quote:

crusty_bread

Quote:

backsoon
As Claire got all my credit in just one year and has proven that every decission not easy to understand short term for the ones as me who handle just common public info was strongly backed up by a following meaningful reason, I have to be humble on criticism on this one as may well be part of a master plan of getting media attraction and preparing Smedley's disembark the se week for reasons I ignore.
She has proven to handle with long sighted better than anyone's expectations so far.

According to Sky, Massa was cheered by brazillians back home and greeted as a hero for disobeying orders (???!!!) According to them, had he obeyed, he would have been "finished" in their eyes. I think that's an incredibly unsophisticated way of seeing things, and shows that he and his fans see it the same- that it's him vs his teammate, and that letting his teammate through in any circumstance makes him number 2.

Obviously, In comparison to Williams' '81, Williams '86/'87 and Ferrari 2010, a world title is almost certainly not at stake this year, so the justification for disobeying team orders isn't there- there is no incentive for a driver to disobey orders other than brainless ego, and there is no motivation for the team to issue orders other than to maximise points that race. There is no agenda, but Massa fans can't see beyond that race and see how it could work in their driver's favour in other races.

In fairness, I grudgingly admire Carlos for his act in Rio because Jones had just won the title and Reutemann, coming towards the end of his career, had never won it, probably wouldn't get another chance, and really should never have been a number 2 in the first place. He had the race won, with no threat from behind, and Jones wasn't close.

Anyway, Brazillian fans' views should not have had a bearing on Williams' decision making, but it's information which provides a fuller picture anyway, and perhaps influenced Massa's decision making at the time, knowing the reception he would receive back him and in the media.

Well pointed crusty.
A point of warning here: Before anyone say something about prejudice, I'm Brazilian, so, I feel I have all the right to say what I will say, please don't start a war.

This kind of behavior is the standard for the average brazilian people, unfortunately. There is a lot of things in our culture that I feel ashamed and that is one of the worst.
Filter out everything brazilian press says... Brazil is a young democracy (29 years), if you see a chat at a bar about any sport, not just F1, you will notice a pattern: someone is the best or is a looser, there is no middle point.
The same about sports, politics, religion and so on...

The press in Brazil is a BIG, BIG crap, you have to filter out who say what.

Sad but true.

Really interesting insight ronald.paloschi

Quote:

crusty_bread

Quote:

phatjack
1996 was a memorable season. Why is it that talented drivers leave Williams?

Because Williams have been good enough for long enough to attract a lot of talented drivers, and consequently, have lost more talented drivers, than, say, RedBull. Ferrari and McLaren have racked up a fair list themselves- it's just how it goes.

Top drivers rarely get on together. Williams like to put them together, but it almost never works out: just look at Hamilton and Alonso, or Prost and Senna. You could argue "why wasn't McLaren able to hang onto 4 times champion Prost, or 2 times champion Alonso? Or 2 times champion Hakkinen? Or 2 times champion Fittipaldi? Or 1 time champion Hunt? Or 3 times champion Lauda? Or 1 time champion Rosberg?

If anything. I think Ferrari have by far the worst record of mismanagement- sacking Lauda and Prost for really petty reasons, and backing Massa over Raikkonen due to politics.

Anyway, you asked, and here's a summary:

1) Jones retired because his teammate wasn't honouring his number 2 contract and Jones felt disrespected

2) Rosberg left because he refused to race alongside Mansell. He later regretted it.

3) Piquet left because Williams wouldn't make him defacto number 1 at a time when Mansell looked at least his match for pace, if not plain faster.

4) Mansell left because Williams sucked with Judd- a legacy of Honda leaving- because Williams wouldn't make Piquet defacto number 1 (spot a pattern?)

5) Mansell left (again!) because Renault pressured Williams to hire Prost and Mansell's ego couldn't hack racing alongside him. Williams won without him.

6) Prost left because Renault and Williams wanted Senna more, and Prost refused to race alongside him (spot a pattern?)

7) Hill was sacked because he proved he was no match for Schumacher. Williams won without him.

8) Villenueve left because Renault had withdrawn and were no longer competitive.

9) Montoya left because he was disciplined for accusing the team (unfairly) of favouring Ralf, and couldn't take it.

So Williams comes in for a lot of stick, but I think it is largely unjustified. They have made some mistakes with hindsight, (the Frentzen call honestly could have worked out very differently) but by and large, their track record has been pretty good, and an awful lot has to do with the egos of those involved. They could have hired a tame number 2, totally pandered to a top driver and tried to rack up the championships with the same driver (Mansell for 93? Prost for 94?) but no-one with a passion for motor-racing has any appetite for that (Schumacher/Ferrari?) and by avoiding that situation, Williams (and Renault) boosted their own reputations and diminished the importance of the drivers.

Maybe it's cultural thing or some drivers/teams have an ego that they think gives them certain privileges?. Today in Bharian what I saw was big head Lewis not even confirm he understood what his team's wishes were much like Massa did. While Vettel and Rosberg did.

To me what was exciting about the race in Bahrain today like circa 1996 the drivers and Team worked together, no one was bigger than the other.

"When you talk, you are repeating what you already know. But if you listen, you may learn something new." - Dalai Lama