Saracens v Sale Sharks Premiership Report

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Negative report I know but there's so many issues to be addressed:

Scrum
Defence (ie missing basic tackles)
Aerial defence and the back 3

Errors that should not be happening at the professional level!

Well done for the report but sorry can we stop this nonsense that Farrell could or would come on and steady the ship.
We saw enough of him not doing that three seasons ago cumulating in the insipid surrender to Sale in the final game of the regular season and again last season numerous times especially in the European games to state fairly unequivocally he simply doesn't do that anymore. He's a player who leads by example whose body no longer lets him do that.

Moving on from him as a player and fading Totem is the best thing we can do for this playing group.
As a coach and inspiration off field he may well be an entirely more positive and beneficial thing for the club and I would love to see that.

Thanks for the report

The only thing I would disagree with is the scrum being a key work on. I was concerned before the game but felt we came out on top overall.

The O'Flaherty try was utterly pathetic from us

some random thoughts after I've chilled a bit over a consoling beer.
Sale are not great. They are big & ugly but don't create anything. Really horrible brand of rugby to watch.
We got beaten up around the tackle area throughout the match.
Our defence was really shocking for two tries Sale scored in the second half.
Our scrum did Ok even after we replaced the props - I think we won more scrum pens than Sale.
Why didn't we contest in the lineout?
If flapping your arm forward well away from your body to prevent a kick from reaching a probable try scoring opportunity is a charge down under the relevant law, the law is just plain wrong.
Our lack of pace in attack & reluctance to spread the ball wide was disturbing (especially against 13 men) - I was at the Captain's Run on Friday & this looked very impressive then.
Why kick away the ball with 2 mins to go - twice???
Enough rambling. It's gone. we have to be 200% better at everything next week.

I have just seen the Lawes "charge down" again.

Absolutely mad decision

I think people are being a little harsh on Sale here. They at least know how to run an attack shape and do things like draw a man and pass which we showed little sign of today.

I do think same players who have shown the same inconsistency over the last few seasons need to be held accountable, especially with some of the young talent behind them.

Sarrov, I totally agree.

What happened to the Wolfpack defence of years ago? Like a sieve this days...

Quote:

TommyKentish
I do think same players who have shown the same inconsistency over the last few seasons need to be held accountable, especially with some of the young talent behind them.

Which players are you thinking of.
For me something has gone badly wrong this week as this was such a top to bottom bad performance.

That's as poorly as I've seen Burke play and tbh Williams wasn't much better he just had a few highlights.
We left two walk-ins out there because players who made a great break didn't look for the support that was there but most painfully we seem to have made a conscious decision not to back the attack that was so successful for us last season but to go back to how we played the mid-season.

In all the talk of Venter's job title the tidbit that got dropped was McCall is very much still about and a very active part of the "ticket"
Is that a good thing, does it stop us moving on properly from his time in charge, was that ever going to happen with Venter coming in.
I honestly don't know but today was a horrible reminder of how grim much of last season was and another reminder we have now largely wasted 3 seasons with a quality squad but indifferent coaching.

Literally anyone tell me what todays plan was and how we thought that was going to beat anyone.

After a night to sleep on it and the context of watching Venters interview, I’m looking far more at the coaches than the players compared to last night. And bearing in mind, I was already questioning wtf that gameplan was. A champ time could’ve defended most of that. Despite the noise Venter brings and a different day to day man management style this looks like a very safe choice with the same voices. After finishing 6th and 5th is that what’’s needed?

With that being said, I’d seriously think about the following changes. I wouldn’t pair Tizard and Isiekwe together again at 5 & 6. Zero carrying (especially with Maro at 4), they’ll make some tackles but not dominant ones. If they’re there to clear rucks then that went to pot yesterday. How many times have we been completely derailed by the other team being slow to roll away or getting in the 9 channel? Teams will always do that if the ref lets them, where is our plan B or plan to get them out of the way? Sodeke should’ve been rewarded after his impact off the bench last week.

I think we need to seriously consider whether Dan should spend more time in the backrow. I’m not giving up on him because I think he can get the throwing right with a consistent run but unfortunately it looks like he’ll be out for a while.

Burke’s kicking looked (like a lot of other things) to have turned a corner last week but deserted him again this week. I’d like to see Hall in at 13 and hopefully he’ll stand up to the pressure of a prem game. That would mean moving Tompkins to 12 or dropping him which would be unbelievably harsh considering he’s been one of our better performers over the two matches. I thought Va’enuku was ok yesterday but has obvious limits in terms of passing particularly. Still he can be a longer term project.

There’s also zero point in having either Daly or Malins at 15 if we’re not actually going to use them as a playmaking option out the back or at first receiver. At which point, stick Bracken at 15, at least he’ll scare some teams with his counterattacking.

It’s only two games in so I appreciate it can sound like catastrophising but it’s all too familiar with previous seasons and even by that standard, a particularly poor performance across the board.

When so many players have off days it suggests to me the problem is with coaching and gameplay rather than personnel.

That being said:

Earl and Martin need to be starting as we arent good enough to be leaving proven internationals on the bench.

Might be time to give Charlie a break and a chance to work on his kicking. Tom James is an experienced Prem player.

Scrap the 6/2. Allows us to get Hall and an outside back on to the bench. Michelow and Sodeke should be rewarded for the impact they have shown by keeping their bench spots ahead of bigger names. Potentially one even starts with Barbeary dropping to the bench.

Otherwise we are swapping players for the sake of it.

Quote:

darktagnan
some random thoughts after I've chilled a bit over a consoling beer.
Sale are not great. They are big & ugly but don't create anything. Really horrible brand of rugby to watch.
We got beaten up around the tackle area throughout the match.
Our defence was really shocking for two tries Sale scored in the second half.
Our scrum did Ok even after we replaced the props - I think we won more scrum pens than Sale.
Why didn't we contest in the lineout?
If flapping your arm forward well away from your body to prevent a kick from reaching a probable try scoring opportunity is a charge down under the relevant law, the law is just plain wrong.
Our lack of pace in attack & reluctance to spread the ball wide was disturbing (especially against 13 men) - I was at the Captain's Run on Friday & this looked very impressive then.
Why kick away the ball with 2 mins to go - twice???
Enough rambling. It's gone. we have to be 200% better at everything next week.

Agree with all of this.

Yesterday I said I thought that the game was reminiscent of last season, but actually maybe it was worse? Last season we could all have a nice long argument about whether there were positives or whether we were beaten by a good team or whether or not we could blame most of the stultifying attack on a couple of old timers or a scrum half having a really bad season…

I don’t think anyone has anything to say about yesterday other than it all stunk to high heaven and next week has to be so much better or Bristol will hand us a good beating.

What a difference a week makes..
Last Monday morning I was looking at the forthcoming fixtures thinking we could go unbeaten until the International break
Today I’m looking at them again thinking we’ll struggle to win any of them if we play like we did yesterday

Quins’ cup final followed by a resurgent Newcastle potentially without any of our internationals on Halloween are looking like eerie fixtures

Who knows if and when the ‘rotated team’ plays or if we see a First XV at all this season

As others have said, we need to get our best players on the pitch for as long as possible

Itoje has been our best forward by a country mile, I assume his ‘rotated’ week will coincide with the birth of his child which I believe is due mid October (so potentially the European game)

Lots to agree with above.

TommyKentish I think the thing I struggle with is the things you are talking about aren't sudden shocks to the system this season. They're known issues. They've been issues for seasons.

Take the issue with locks as a case in point.
In the coaches defence I'd suggest it sounded like Sodeke was due to start which I think would have been 100% the right call based on last week. I don't know if he picked up a knock but the late change and not being on the bench suggests that.
Martin on the bench again I can get behind. We know he's exactly the player we've needed for a while but we equally knew that there's a high chance of him not being available for much of the season and if he was he would need to be extremely carefully managed. Given he wasn't selected last week I think bringing him on from the bench was justifiable.
Where it falls down a bit is knowing both the strengths and some weaknesses of those locks you don't pick them and then chose a game where you're asking them to carry. If that's what you want the balance is better with a proper carrying option and someone who will smash rucks at 6. Onyeama-Christie maybe.
I get that the idea might well be that those selected will be making sure you have clean ball for our other carriers but they didn't and in some cases have been struggling to do so for a while.
If you pick Isiekwe then not making major use of his ability at the lineout is just a waste and we know that like Itoje he can carry but that's not his forte especially if we're asking him to go route one. The balance just isn't there with those three.

I also think we should know by now you pick one of Daly and Malins especially if you're going 6/2. Again I get the idea that more utility feels a good thing but we're just ending up with a FullBack who offers little in attack and kicks possession away and player whose gets exposed on the wing against the speedsters out there today.

Where I disagree is on Burke. His kicking is a big work-on but I don't think you give up on it and neither is the rest of Hall's game good enough for him to be a justified starter on kicking alone. Yesterday it was the difference between a draw and a loss and they were kicks he should have got but also yesterday we really didn't play in a way that got the best out of him in attack which is where we'll see him rewarding us with Trys.
If we're going to play like yesterday then we might as well stick Farrell at 10 and trust in him kicking conversions but the game is being played in 5's not 3's and 2's so much now and he doesn't add to our attack to the degree I think we need to do well this season.

If you’ll permit a Chiefs supporter to comment, I think most neutral observers would agree that Saracens indifferent form for much of last season and yesterdays performance are truly baffling for a side so rich in seasoned Internationals and thoroughbred academy youngsters.
There is a quality which all great sporting teams possess but I believe is impossible to predict in advance- namely balance. Sarries don’t have it at the moment but it is the job of the coaching team to find it.
The players do their part by performing consistently. Earl and the much criticised Tompkins stand out in this regard. There are also some who flatter to deceive and I would put Dan and Isiekwe in that category. Blooding some of your incredible crop of youngsters has already happened, the big test is now to give them developmental game time to bring them on without knackering what may be immature physiques.

Quote:

Debenair
If you’ll permit a Chiefs supporter to comment, I think most neutral observers would agree that Saracens indifferent form for much of last season and yesterdays performance are truly baffling for a side so rich in seasoned Internationals and thoroughbred academy youngsters.
There is a quality which all great sporting teams possess but I believe is impossible to predict in advance- namely balance. Sarries don’t have it at the moment but it is the job of the coaching team to find it.
The players do their part by performing consistently. Earl and the much criticised Tompkins stand out in this regard. There are also some who flatter to deceive and I would put Dan and Isiekwe in that category. Blooding some of your incredible crop of youngsters has already happened, the big test is now to give them developmental game time to bring them on without knackering what may be immature physiques.

All fair comments, and no complaints. Utterly bewildering how we continue to play Isiekwe. I am struggling to think of an influential performance in the last 3-4 season and looks miles behind the pace consistently. As mentioned above, he's did incredibly well to come back from personal health issues, but can someone tell me if I am missing something? Potentially his line out steals, but don't think we competed for one line out successfully yesterday?

Isiekwe for me is a perfect example of our muddled thinking.

He is a great athlete, covers the ground well and suits a quick expansive game. What he isnt is a power carrier who is going to bash down the oppositions front door. So what do we chose to do, send up repeated one out runners in to the heart of opposition defense.

A fantastic lineout forward, but we do not consistently challenge the opposition throw and our own drills seem predictable.

Quote:

Sarrov
Isiekwe for me is a perfect example of our muddled thinking.
He is a great athlete, covers the ground well and suits a quick expansive game. What he isnt is a power carrier who is going to bash down the oppositions front door. So what do we chose to do, send up repeated one out runners in to the heart of opposition defense.

A fantastic lineout forward, but we do not consistently challenge the opposition throw and our own drills seem predictable.

I would say the complete opposite of "covering the ground well". He looks completely knackered from the first whistle onwards and struggles to keep pace.

Quote:

Sarrov
Isiekwe for me is a perfect example of our muddled thinking.
... What he isnt is a power carrier who is going to bash down the oppositions front door. So what do we chose to do, send up repeated one out runners in to the heart of opposition defense.
A fantastic lineout forward, but we do not consistently challenge the opposition throw and our own drills seem predictable.

100% and can be summed up as you pick the correct instrument for the job. It applies to several of yesterdays selections.

Seeing Burke kick away possession speculatively in their 22 like Daly or Farrell would was possibly the most depressing moment of the game and if that's how he's being asked to play no wonder he's not feeling it.

The game had all the hallmarks of our most unimaginative and conservative coaching of the past 3 seasons being repeated.

Quote:

PaulHerox
Lots to agree with above.
TommyKentish I think the thing I struggle with is the things you are talking about aren't sudden shocks to the system this season. They're known issues. They've been issues for seasons.

Yes agreed, I didn’t quite get that across I my post but this is exactly the issue with making lineup changes.

Quote:

PaulHerox
Where I disagree is on Burke. His kicking is a big work-on but I don't think you give up on it and neither is the rest of Hall's game good enough for him to be a justified starter on kicking alone. Yesterday it was the difference between a draw and a loss and they were kicks he should have got but also yesterday we really didn't play in a way that got the best out of him in attack which is where we'll see him rewarding us with Trys.
If we're going to play like yesterday then we might as well stick Farrell at 10 and trust in him kicking conversions but the game is being played in 5's not 3's and 2's so much now and he doesn't add to our attack to the degree I think we need to do well this season.

In context of the first part of your post I’m not sure how you can square that with Burke’s kicking. There has been some improvement but it’s been an issue since he joined. I’m not in any way saying drop him because he can be fabulous in attack (notwithstanding yesterday) and an excellent defender. Yesterday’s tactics or the execution (we’ll never know which was the issue, maybe both) absolutely hamstrung him in attack. But if you remove kicking duties it’s just an extra weight off his shoulders and Hall is the only one I can think of who does that well from our backs. I also think Hall has enormous potential to be our long term 13, its not just his kicking but Va’enuku/Tompkins does lack that option. Agreed tries are way more important but we won last week due to more conversions and could’ve drawn this week despite being dreadful. I don’t want to go back to Faz, especially at 12 and his kicking wasn’t exactly great last season from memory.

Edit: formatting hard



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2026:10:05:16:27:36 by TommyKentish.

Quote:

jimfitz12

Quote:

Sarrov
Isiekwe for me is a perfect example of our muddled thinking.
He is a great athlete, covers the ground well and suits a quick expansive game. What he isnt is a power carrier who is going to bash down the oppositions front door. So what do we chose to do, send up repeated one out runners in to the heart of opposition defense.

A fantastic lineout forward, but we do not consistently challenge the opposition throw and our own drills seem predictable.

I would say the complete opposite of "covering the ground well". He looks completely knackered from the first whistle onwards and struggles to keep pace.

Mako also looked shattered after 5mins of a game, some players just have that look to them.

If he was behind the pace of the game he would have been pulled instead of JMG.

imo you can doubt his impact, but not the effort or involvements

I'm pretty sure Sodeke was available given he was in the back up players that were helping the team warm up then was doing further runs during the first half.

It was also surprising to Brantingham in the back up players as i thought he would have kept his place on the bench after last week.

It was noticeable that AOC was with Hartley when they went from the East stand round to the dugout so I wonder if he is injured at the moment.

All in all a thoroughly dire performance with the main bit of excitement coming from Jack's break for the third try. His ability to step inside then accelerate away is a thing of beauty.

Quote:

Sarrov

Quote:

jimfitz12

Quote:

Sarrov
Isiekwe for me is a perfect example of our muddled thinking.
He is a great athlete, covers the ground well and suits a quick expansive game. What he isnt is a power carrier who is going to bash down the oppositions front door. So what do we chose to do, send up repeated one out runners in to the heart of opposition defense.

A fantastic lineout forward, but we do not consistently challenge the opposition throw and our own drills seem predictable.

I would say the complete opposite of "covering the ground well". He looks completely knackered from the first whistle onwards and struggles to keep pace.

Mako also looked shattered after 5mins of a game, some players just have that look to them.

If he was behind the pace of the game he would have been pulled instead of JMG.

imo you can doubt his impact, but not the effort or involvements

Fair enough, was just the way I was seeing it, but am sure you are right.

He has such potential, so perhaps I expect more, just feels like he rarely makes an impact (to the naked eye anyway)

Quote:

jimfitz12

Quote:

Sarrov

Quote:

jimfitz12

Quote:

Sarrov
Isiekwe for me is a perfect example of our muddled thinking.
He is a great athlete, covers the ground well and suits a quick expansive game. What he isnt is a power carrier who is going to bash down the oppositions front door. So what do we chose to do, send up repeated one out runners in to the heart of opposition defense.

A fantastic lineout forward, but we do not consistently challenge the opposition throw and our own drills seem predictable.

I would say the complete opposite of "covering the ground well". He looks completely knackered from the first whistle onwards and struggles to keep pace.

Mako also looked shattered after 5mins of a game, some players just have that look to them.

If he was behind the pace of the game he would have been pulled instead of JMG.

imo you can doubt his impact, but not the effort or involvements

Fair enough, was just the way I was seeing it, but am sure you are right.

He has such potential, so perhaps I expect more, just feels like he rarely makes an impact (to the naked eye anyway)

Totally agree on the lack of impact.

It feels to me similar to when we kept playing Tompkins at 12 and asked him to just run head down in to the opposition. The players look ineffectual because they are being asked to play counter to their strengths.

For what it is worth I also don't think we get enough out of JMG, who would be so much more effective playing a bit wider from the ruck out more

Quote:

Sarrov
For what it is worth I also don't think we get enough out of JMG, who would be so much more effective playing a bit wider from the ruck out more

We didn't from Willis either despite how incredible he was for us. Maybe 80% of what he had to offer.
Agree about JMG he's spent most of the last three years hitting rucks and showing us how great he could be given ball in the wider channels every once in a while with no changes being made to accommodate that.

Whilst I was disappointed with yesterday’s performance and game strategy I am not as pessimistic as many on this board. I genuinely think we have a top class half back pairing and some very decent back 3 options. Losing Hartley to a major injury is a major setback as number 12 is a key position in modern rugby.
Whilst I still think we are short of a top draw tight head I think we have a competitive set of forwards and once George Martin is up to speed I think we will have more grunt in the front 5. I have been disappointed with Barbeary’s contribution on field to date but am helpful that the coaches can get him fitter and thus more powerful - none of our pack hit the tackle area as hard as Christ Tziuna their number 19.
I also think the league is more even this year than any previous year as the salary cap has limited the bigger spending clubs and nearly all the teams are spending up to the cap.
Lastly, I am just thankful that our problems are not as severe as Quins who really do seem to have lost their way.

Quote:

ComeOnSarries
Lastly, I am just thankful that our problems are not as severe as Quins who really do seem to have lost their way.

This feels like a invitation to our most comprehensive defeat against Quins of all time!
It's great you are still positive though.

It feels inevitable at this point!