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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Darron (IP Logged)
Date: 04 November, 2017 22:06

Maybe he should make Brazil his finale, just without the replay of last year.

Autosport ran a story earlier this week saying Williams should race Kubica in Abu Dhabi, suppose it depends how safe 5th in the CC is looking after Brazil.

Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Duffer (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2017 07:17

Should i say it again? If kubica was going to be a williams driver he would have already had cockpit time in practice. It is not kubica, and when it is not him, dont be upset with williams, it will be because he didnt cut it.



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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: AlanJones (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2017 10:07

Well Duff, then name the driver who will get in? Because in your way of thinking, Di Resta would also need to get some time on Friday.
To me it is clear that Williams have made up their minds. Based upon the tests. Else Massa wouldnt have called it quits now. So the decission has been made already and my guess is that Massa gets his farewell tour at Brazil and that we are going to see our 2018 driver in (at least) one free practise session in Abu Dhabi as well as he will do the test at Abu Dhabi following the race weekend. And this could very well be Kubica.




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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2017 10:08 by AlanJones.

Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Duffer (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2017 13:47

I would put money on kvyat.



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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Marco Cardoso (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2017 15:11

Quote:
Duffer
I would put money on kvyat.

Kvyat is a disaster. No way he is the driver Williams needs for next year.

1. Got sacked. Twice. By the same boss!
2. As the consistecy of a gelly.
3. Not a n1 driver for any team in F1.
4. Makes dumb mistakes.
5. Crashes too much.

Bare in mind.

1. Renault and Mclaren will be going up the grid.
2. FI has good drivers.
3. With a Stroll/Kvyat line up you'll be running for 7th in WCC alongside Haas, Torro Rosso and Sauber.



Marco Cardoso

I've been wrong before and i'll be wrong again.

Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: AlanJones (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2017 15:32

Kvyat would me a solid choice Duff. I'm in on the idea of Kvyat at our team. Finally a guy that isn't mediocre.

And Marco, I can't tell if you're talking about Stroll or about another driver..




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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: andy si (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2017 20:58

Quote:
Duffer
I would put money on kvyat.

Kvyat is fast, but he is another work in progress. As seen from his RB and TR experience.
Williams needs a driver to test and develop.
I don't see Kvyat or Verhlein doing that to be honest.

Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: AlanJones (IP Logged)
Date: 05 November, 2017 22:38

I cant see Kubica doing it also to be honest. But then again, we havent have had a decent development driver since Barrichello.




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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Mehryar (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 07:00

Development driver? Are you kidding? There's not such a thing, atleast not in this era.
Barrichello developed what? Shown the direction of what he wants from the car and the result was 2011.



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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: AlanJones (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 07:20

You'll always have a driver that fit the car like a glove. And you used to have a driver that steered the development to make the car fit like a glove. Something Barrichello did despite some horrendous results. That was used to be a driver that developed the car.
These days it is all the way around. The car gets made by some computers and some technicians and the driver has to adapt to it. But that still is the same thing; Barrichello was our last development driver.




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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2017 07:22 by AlanJones.

Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Duffer (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 08:00

It is true a driver has a huge impact on how the car is developed, depending on over steer, understeer, all the setting. All these things have different update requirements eventually leading to a better or worse car.



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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Mehryar (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 09:12

Asking for understeer/oversteer or things like that are about style of a driver so the team pushes to make it suitable for style of driver x or driver y.
It has nothing to do with development direction a driver gives.for me, development direction is to spend time/energy/resources on part A or part B, and then decide whether a part is useful to be manifactured and brought to the track or not...these things, are done by technical stuff and the computers.

The sole real effect an experienced driver can bring in, is setting up a car, as you could read how much Stroll took advantage of Massa this year or how much Lewis was using Alonso, more than that is an overrated topic with tens of examples to prove it wrong.



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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: AlanJones (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 09:22

As I said Mehryar, these days development is mostly done by computers and engineers who set out the path in the way they want the car to develop. Drivers just have to adapt.
Not some 10 years ago, it was common knowledge that teams would let drivers decide in what direction the development would go. If they wanted to spend resources on part 3 instead of parts 1 and 2, then part 3 was developed further. And if both drivers disagreed upon what part to develop, then the first driver was always the one getting his way.




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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Ozzy Osbone (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 09:57

Bye Felipe. Thanks. I think.

Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Greg_OR (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 13:59

Quote:
Mehryar
Development driver? Are you kidding? There's not such a thing, atleast not in this era.
Why? In this era we have simulators, and drivers to test things in progress, and you need a driver who will squeeze maximum from car - even in simulator, what is not that obvious, and for ex. Kubica shown his skill in Mercedes simulator improving setups and lap times when all team thought they already had got max of it.
Another thing setup related - IMO it depends on how wide driver's knowledge and car understanding is - setup is always a compromise and I can imagine situations when good 'development' driver will ask engineers to change sth. not directly related to setup (as aero) because he knows it will help him setup car better.

Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Mehryar (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 15:15

Greg, again you mention a topic which is already talked about alot! Kubica improved setup and laptimes in Mercedes simulator when the team thought they are at the pick performance? 1.when did this test happen? 2.who is quoating this ? 3.the team base for "pick performance" is their race drivers, right? Kubica came in, beat that time, Mercedes sees that and then extend the contract with Bottas? Are they crazy?!
About development drivers and the time they spend in simulators, that's quite debateable...You hear from the best driver of the grid which simulator runs are meaningless and then you see who are the development drivers? If they were meant to have an idea about what the team and development should do, these drivers should be older and more experienced drivers, if not the race drivers themselves! Who was our last development driver? I think Suzzie Wolff and that shows how much these development drivers doing the simulators can mean! In most teams they are young talents or girls with commercial benefit.like Suzzie or that Carmen something, a while ago.
Imho, these simulator runs can be useful for 2 things:
1.giving a young rookie, an understanding of how a f1 car behaves.
2.double check of what has been read in windtunnel before production of the part.

Aj, I can agree on that but as you claim, the time has passed and input of a driver is so minimal that I don't care much between Massa and Bottas (2014version) because of their development abilities.



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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: AlanJones (IP Logged)
Date: 06 November, 2017 16:02

Well like Greg and Duff mentioned, ofcourse you still need a driver who can say that the development done is in the right direction or not. But it doesn't take a very skilled driver to test such things these days with all telemetry and stuff going on. It is not like drivers these days needing to be like Piquet who was a master at this stuff when he was at our team.




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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Duffer (IP Logged)
Date: 07 November, 2017 14:43

Depending on how a car is handling, and how a driver gets the fastest time, that will prioritise certain developments. I can guarentee that after a full season in the same car done independently with the same engineers, kimi would end up with a differently developed car than lewis. Absolutely.

How are new developments evaluated? That is right, drivers lap time. How often to you see some scrapped because the driver didnt like it as much. How often do you see one driver prefer an updated part, the other not.

Dont kid yourselves, drivers are absolutely a big cog in all this.



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Re: Massa confirms retirement
Posted by: Vancha (IP Logged)
Date: 07 November, 2017 16:15

Susie Wolff was our development driver.

--

And FW33. Our worst car ever. In Rubens development.. gloves.


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